{"id":339172,"date":"2024-08-10T18:35:04","date_gmt":"2024-08-10T16:35:04","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/?p=339172"},"modified":"2024-08-10T18:35:06","modified_gmt":"2024-08-10T16:35:06","slug":"yes-the-greenhouse-effect-is-like-a-real-greenhouse-and-other-odds-and-ends","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/?p=339172","title":{"rendered":"Yes, the Greenhouse Effect Is Like a Real Greenhouse (and other odds and ends)"},"content":{"rendered":"\n
\"\"<\/figure>\n\n\n\n

<\/p>\n\n\n\n

From Roy Spencer, PhD <\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n

August 9th, 2024 by Roy W. Spencer, Ph. D.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

As the result of complaints I\u2019m getting regarding certain commenters here who can\u2019t make a point without insulting others, I\u2019ve been forced to read through hundreds of comments. I will probably be implementing one or more changes regarding commenting. More on that later\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I\u2019m also seeing some recurring science talking points that are \u201cincorrect\u201d (as incorrect as can be in the realm of science). I\u2019ve gotten where I\u2019ll let bad science be expressed here if it\u2019s done respectfully, and then let others attempt to correct it. But since not everyone can remember what I\u2019ve blogged on in years past (even I can\u2019t remember some of it), I thought it might be good to review some highlights. It might reduce confusion from some of our newer visitors about what *I* understand and promote from the science, rather than letting my allowing of opinions being expressed here being interpreted as some sort of endorsement of others\u2019 ideas.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Yes, the Greenhouse Effect is like a Real Greenhouse<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Most objections to using the greenhouse analogy is that the atmosphere does not have a \u201croof\u201d preventing convective heat loss like a greenhouse does. But those who claim this don\u2019t realize that the greenhouse effect (GHE) is defined with no convective heat transport<\/em>. The GHE is like a real greenhouse with a perfect roof. The original paper on this is Manabe & Strickler (1964)<\/a>, where they calculated the average surface temperature in pure radiative equilibrium (the surface and each atmospheric layer achieving a temperature where rates of absorbed and emitted radiation are equal\u2013 no convection) was about 70 deg. C warmer than what is actually observed. The weaker \u201c33 deg. C\u201d effect you often see attributed to the GHE is actually the sum of [GHE warming + convective cooling]. It is NOT the extra warming from the GHE alone. So, yes, Virginia, Earth\u2019s greenhouse effect is like a real greenhouse (even more so, because its \u201croof\u201d is perfect, whereas a real greenhouse roof does lose some heat through conduction of heat through the roof and then convective air currents cooling the roof).<\/p>\n\n\n\n

No, the Saturation Effect of Increasing CO2 on Global Temperatures is Not Being Ignored<\/strong><\/em> in Global Warming Projections<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

As CO2 increases in the atmosphere, the effect it has on the loss of IR energy to outer space becomes progressively less, producing a saturation effect. But this is true in all climate models as well, including the ones that produce unrealistic (5 deg. C or more) of warming from a doubling of atmospheric CO2. Thus, invoking the \u201csaturation effect\u201d as a magical talisman to refute CO2-induced warming will not work.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

In fact, it is not possible for a planetary atmosphere to become totally opaque to IR radiation, because it would have to be fully, 100% saturated across all pressure-broadening affected wavelengths and through the entire depth of the atmosphere. Even Venus, with ~200,000 times as much CO2 as Earth\u2019s atmosphere, is not \u201csaturated\u201d regarding the absorption of IR radiation.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

The saturation talking point seems to have ramped up since publication of the recent theoretical line-by-line computations<\/a> by my friend Will Happer & his co-author last year. But their calculations result in the same amount of radiative forcing from 2XCO2 as others have computed, and (again) are already included in even the most strongly warming climate models out there. Happer\u2019s calculations might be the most complete and accurate to date (I don\u2019t know), but their results do not change what is already in climate models in any significant way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Yes, the Cold Atmosphere can Keep the Surface Warmer than if the GHE Did Not Exist<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Just like adding insulation to the walls in your house in winter can increase the temperature inside (for the same amount of energy input from a furnace), the \u201ccold\u201d atmosphere helps keep the Earth\u2019s surface warmer than if the radiative insulation it provides did not exist. As I\u2019ve stated before<\/a>, just take a $50 handheld IR thermometer and point it upward in a clear sky, and see how the indicated temperature warms as you point the thermometer obliquely, away from the zenith. That is the GHE acting on the thermopile within the thermometer, raising its temperature because more IR radiation from the sky occurs from the oblique angle than from pointing it straight up\u2026. even though the atmosphere up there is colder than the interior of the thermometer.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

A recent experiment<\/a> posted at Watts Up With That shows how a cooler object can make a warm object even warmer. Over 10 years ago I used a different experimental setup to demonstrate the same thing<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Now, regarding commenting here\u2026 To begin with, I think I will spend a couple of hours computing how many of the frequent commenters\u2019 comments here include insults. Would everyone like to see those statistics? Should we consider an award for the person who has the highest percentage of insults?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

As you can tell, Dr. Roy is grumpy this morning.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Now, get off my lawn.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

UPDATE:<\/strong> I\u2019m going to start limiting comments to 10 per person per day. Also, at least 50% of some commenters\u2019 comments are just insults or other negative noise with no useful input. Start policing your own behavior because in a week or so I might start posting Insult Scores and banning folks. Others visiting this blog don\u2019t want to wade through all of your negativity to find useful insights.<\/em> Grumble, grumble\u2026<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

As the result of complaints I\u2019m getting regarding certain commenters here who can\u2019t make a point without insulting others, I\u2019ve been forced to read through hundreds of comments. I will probably be implementing one or more changes regarding commenting. More on that later\u2026<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":121246920,"featured_media":339173,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_coblocks_attr":"","_coblocks_dimensions":"","_coblocks_responsive_height":"","_coblocks_accordion_ie_support":"","_crdt_document":"","advanced_seo_description":"","jetpack_seo_html_title":"","jetpack_seo_noindex":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_access":"","_jetpack_dont_email_post_to_subs":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_tier_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paywalled_content":false,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":"","jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":true,"jetpack_social_options":{"image_generator_settings":{"template":"highway","default_image_id":0,"font":"","enabled":false},"version":2},"jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false},"categories":[1],"tags":[691818153,691818076,691818296,691828932,691828344],"class_list":{"0":"post-339172","1":"post","2":"type-post","3":"status-publish","4":"format-standard","5":"has-post-thumbnail","6":"hentry","7":"category-uncategorized","8":"tag-climate-models","9":"tag-co2","10":"tag-greenhouse-effect","11":"tag-heat-transport","12":"tag-saturation-effect","14":"fallback-thumbnail"},"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/08\/00two_crowds_of_people_arguing_with_each_othe_55a1ebab-2398-4741-baef-98ccb12f9202_2.png?fit=1232%2C928&ssl=1","jetpack_likes_enabled":true,"jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"jetpack_shortlink":"https:\/\/wp.me\/paxLW1-1qew","jetpack-related-posts":[{"id":230948,"url":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/?p=230948","url_meta":{"origin":339172,"position":0},"title":"Equatorial Rainfall by Hour","author":"uwe.roland.gross","date":"25\/11\/2022","format":false,"excerpt":"Sadly, I\u2019m in a disagreement with a very good man and a very good scientist, Dr. Roy Spencer. Dr. Roy and Dr. John Christy are the brains behind the satellite measurements of the temperature of the atmosphere.","rel":"","context":"Similar post","block_context":{"text":"Similar post","link":""},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/11\/image-873.png?fit=1200%2C675&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200,"srcset":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/11\/image-873.png?fit=1200%2C675&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200 1x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/11\/image-873.png?fit=1200%2C675&ssl=1&resize=525%2C300 1.5x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/11\/image-873.png?fit=1200%2C675&ssl=1&resize=700%2C400 2x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/11\/image-873.png?fit=1200%2C675&ssl=1&resize=1050%2C600 3x"},"classes":[]},{"id":427421,"url":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/?p=427421","url_meta":{"origin":339172,"position":1},"title":"Clearing up some misconceptions about the DoE report","author":"uwe.roland.gross","date":"22\/02\/2026","format":false,"excerpt":"Last year I had the privilege of working with a small team (me, Judy Curry, John Christy, Steve Koonin and Roy Spencer) on a\u00a0draft report\u00a0for U.S. Energy Secretary Chris Wright on the topic of climate change impacts on the United States. After its release two environmental groups sued the Department\u2026","rel":"","context":"In \"2009 Endangerment Finding (EF)\"","block_context":{"text":"2009 Endangerment Finding (EF)","link":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/?tag=2009-endangerment-finding-ef"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/02\/AQNbnnLIcdMHEF3rfzqz5iFwusXYT2U3cQTkALZg8DN6Cz9TAFbTORInKT5WaZ7A7UOOi6oip7zHiZQ1igkEpZuMASOOkKAXMC1cd3aYQSW3OPr8VoN4uFE2cRD-UEnZ.jpeg?fit=1200%2C875&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200,"srcset":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/02\/AQNbnnLIcdMHEF3rfzqz5iFwusXYT2U3cQTkALZg8DN6Cz9TAFbTORInKT5WaZ7A7UOOi6oip7zHiZQ1igkEpZuMASOOkKAXMC1cd3aYQSW3OPr8VoN4uFE2cRD-UEnZ.jpeg?fit=1200%2C875&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200 1x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/02\/AQNbnnLIcdMHEF3rfzqz5iFwusXYT2U3cQTkALZg8DN6Cz9TAFbTORInKT5WaZ7A7UOOi6oip7zHiZQ1igkEpZuMASOOkKAXMC1cd3aYQSW3OPr8VoN4uFE2cRD-UEnZ.jpeg?fit=1200%2C875&ssl=1&resize=525%2C300 1.5x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/02\/AQNbnnLIcdMHEF3rfzqz5iFwusXYT2U3cQTkALZg8DN6Cz9TAFbTORInKT5WaZ7A7UOOi6oip7zHiZQ1igkEpZuMASOOkKAXMC1cd3aYQSW3OPr8VoN4uFE2cRD-UEnZ.jpeg?fit=1200%2C875&ssl=1&resize=700%2C400 2x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/02\/AQNbnnLIcdMHEF3rfzqz5iFwusXYT2U3cQTkALZg8DN6Cz9TAFbTORInKT5WaZ7A7UOOi6oip7zHiZQ1igkEpZuMASOOkKAXMC1cd3aYQSW3OPr8VoN4uFE2cRD-UEnZ.jpeg?fit=1200%2C875&ssl=1&resize=1050%2C600 3x"},"classes":[]},{"id":373052,"url":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/?p=373052","url_meta":{"origin":339172,"position":2},"title":"35 years ago today, NASA space scientist Dr. Roy Spencer had climate exactly correct","author":"uwe.roland.gross","date":"01\/04\/2025","format":false,"excerpt":"35 years ago today, NASA space scientist Dr. Roy Spencer had climate exactly correct: \u201cIf someone is sure there\u2019s greenhouse warming occurring, that\u2019s more emotional than scientific because the evidence has been questionable.\u201d Over the decades, we\u2019ve gone from \u201cquestionable evidence\u201d to just plain hoax.","rel":"","context":"In \"Dr. Roy Spencer\"","block_context":{"text":"Dr. Roy Spencer","link":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/?tag=dr-roy-spencer"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/04\/0this_week_in_global_warming_denial.jpg?fit=1200%2C800&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200,"srcset":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/04\/0this_week_in_global_warming_denial.jpg?fit=1200%2C800&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200 1x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/04\/0this_week_in_global_warming_denial.jpg?fit=1200%2C800&ssl=1&resize=525%2C300 1.5x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/04\/0this_week_in_global_warming_denial.jpg?fit=1200%2C800&ssl=1&resize=700%2C400 2x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/04\/0this_week_in_global_warming_denial.jpg?fit=1200%2C800&ssl=1&resize=1050%2C600 3x"},"classes":[]},{"id":281157,"url":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/?p=281157","url_meta":{"origin":339172,"position":3},"title":"Climate model provides data-driven answer to major goal of climate research","author":"uwe.roland.gross","date":"29\/09\/2023","format":false,"excerpt":"UAH\u2019s Dr. John Christy reviews results from the one-dimensional climate model Dr. Roy W. Spencer developed. Credit: Liz Junod From Phys.org by Dr. Roy W. Spencer,\u00a0University of Alabama in Huntsville A\u00a0new research study\u00a0from The University of Alabama in Huntsville, a part of the University of Alabama System, addresses a central\u2026","rel":"","context":"In \"CO2\"","block_context":{"text":"CO2","link":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/?tag=co2"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/09\/00climate-model-provides.jpg?fit=1200%2C675&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200,"srcset":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/09\/00climate-model-provides.jpg?fit=1200%2C675&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200 1x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/09\/00climate-model-provides.jpg?fit=1200%2C675&ssl=1&resize=525%2C300 1.5x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/09\/00climate-model-provides.jpg?fit=1200%2C675&ssl=1&resize=700%2C400 2x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/09\/00climate-model-provides.jpg?fit=1200%2C675&ssl=1&resize=1050%2C600 3x"},"classes":[]},{"id":298638,"url":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/?p=298638","url_meta":{"origin":339172,"position":4},"title":"New Article on Climate Models vs. Observations","author":"uwe.roland.gross","date":"28\/01\/2024","format":false,"excerpt":"Since commenter Nate objects to my inclusion of the Corn Belt graph (yes, it is a small area), please go to the actual article link at Heritage.org where 2 out of the 3 graphs I provide are for global average temperatures.","rel":"","context":"In \"Climate models\"","block_context":{"text":"Climate models","link":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/?tag=climate-models"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/01\/00Screenshot-2024-01-28-091316.png?fit=1200%2C880&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200,"srcset":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/01\/00Screenshot-2024-01-28-091316.png?fit=1200%2C880&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200 1x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/01\/00Screenshot-2024-01-28-091316.png?fit=1200%2C880&ssl=1&resize=525%2C300 1.5x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/01\/00Screenshot-2024-01-28-091316.png?fit=1200%2C880&ssl=1&resize=700%2C400 2x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/01\/00Screenshot-2024-01-28-091316.png?fit=1200%2C880&ssl=1&resize=1050%2C600 3x"},"classes":[]},{"id":395049,"url":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/?p=395049","url_meta":{"origin":339172,"position":5},"title":"The Consensus Strikes Back: Climate Empire Launches Legal Assault on EPA","author":"uwe.roland.gross","date":"14\/08\/2025","format":false,"excerpt":"Breaking: Climate Consensus Crusaders Sue to Save the Endangerment Finding From\u2026 Skeptics With Opinions","rel":"","context":"In \"climate lawsuits\"","block_context":{"text":"climate lawsuits","link":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/?tag=climate-lawsuits"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/08\/0AQPfcLO9lAEkmgN2nztkL7XAVntRqbpXGHbL8ZCfawqMSvlv_He4MXY88MVtTYE1DYv7jh7xJd_2d87s-BeeG1Dhj33ZDr9AA0_wtaneJ-2Jpd5KLK44l4Qo_xsjronk6nHRyOuqXFVGDcROczOarjKTHBMZEw-1.jpeg?fit=1200%2C1200&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200,"srcset":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/08\/0AQPfcLO9lAEkmgN2nztkL7XAVntRqbpXGHbL8ZCfawqMSvlv_He4MXY88MVtTYE1DYv7jh7xJd_2d87s-BeeG1Dhj33ZDr9AA0_wtaneJ-2Jpd5KLK44l4Qo_xsjronk6nHRyOuqXFVGDcROczOarjKTHBMZEw-1.jpeg?fit=1200%2C1200&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200 1x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/08\/0AQPfcLO9lAEkmgN2nztkL7XAVntRqbpXGHbL8ZCfawqMSvlv_He4MXY88MVtTYE1DYv7jh7xJd_2d87s-BeeG1Dhj33ZDr9AA0_wtaneJ-2Jpd5KLK44l4Qo_xsjronk6nHRyOuqXFVGDcROczOarjKTHBMZEw-1.jpeg?fit=1200%2C1200&ssl=1&resize=525%2C300 1.5x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/08\/0AQPfcLO9lAEkmgN2nztkL7XAVntRqbpXGHbL8ZCfawqMSvlv_He4MXY88MVtTYE1DYv7jh7xJd_2d87s-BeeG1Dhj33ZDr9AA0_wtaneJ-2Jpd5KLK44l4Qo_xsjronk6nHRyOuqXFVGDcROczOarjKTHBMZEw-1.jpeg?fit=1200%2C1200&ssl=1&resize=700%2C400 2x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/08\/0AQPfcLO9lAEkmgN2nztkL7XAVntRqbpXGHbL8ZCfawqMSvlv_He4MXY88MVtTYE1DYv7jh7xJd_2d87s-BeeG1Dhj33ZDr9AA0_wtaneJ-2Jpd5KLK44l4Qo_xsjronk6nHRyOuqXFVGDcROczOarjKTHBMZEw-1.jpeg?fit=1200%2C1200&ssl=1&resize=1050%2C600 3x"},"classes":[]}],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/339172","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/121246920"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=339172"}],"version-history":[{"count":3,"href":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/339172\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":339176,"href":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/339172\/revisions\/339176"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/media\/339173"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=339172"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=339172"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=339172"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}