{"id":283787,"date":"2023-10-18T13:17:13","date_gmt":"2023-10-18T11:17:13","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/?p=283787"},"modified":"2023-10-18T13:17:17","modified_gmt":"2023-10-18T11:17:17","slug":"taking-one-for-the-team","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/?p=283787","title":{"rendered":"Taking One For The\u00a0Team"},"content":{"rendered":"\n
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An extraordinary interview with Roger Hallam, the co-founder of Extinction Rebellion, and the mastermind of Just Stop Oil.\u00a0<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

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From Climate Etc.<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n

BY\u00a0MARK HODGSON<\/a><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

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An extraordinary interview<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Whatever one thinks of Roger Hallam, I think it\u2019s fair to say that it\u2019s challenging to listen to him for very long. Or at least I find it so, which is why I claim to have taken one for the team in transcribing below his interview with Nick Robinson on BBC Radio 4\u2019s Political Thinking programme the other week.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I wonder why the BBC interviewed him? Perhaps it agrees with his agenda? Whatever the reason, I think they have done the public a service by allowing them to hear what one of the main people behind Extinction Rebellion and Just Stop Oil believes. If the public hears what he says, surely the cause of XR and JSO must be undermined still further? So here it is, in all its unadulterated glory. I feel moved to say that I don\u2019t think I\u2019ve ever listened to such disjointed drivel in my life, but that\u2019s just my opinion of course. I\u2019d be interested to know what you think. There is quite a lot of talking over one another in places. I have done my best where that happens \u2013 it is signified by individual speech blocks beginning or ending with three dots (i.e. \u2026):<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: Disruption works. Disruption is justified. So says my guest this week, Roger Hallam, the co-founder of Extinction Rebellion, and the mastermind of Just Stop Oil. He joins me here on Political Thinking, an opportunity for a conversation with, not a news interrogation of, someone who shapes our political thinking about what has shaped theirs. Hallam argues \u2013 and I quote \u2013 that only mass civil resistance can stop the global one percent imposing mass death on billions of people. Agree with him, or passionately disagree, there\u2019s no denying that he is one of the most potent organisers of political protests of recent times. Roger Hallam, welcome to Political Thinking.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: Hi.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: That quote came from your website. There\u2019s another quote on the front page. It says \u201cThe essence of what is human is the ability to make a decision, a conscious decision, about what is right in life.\u201d What do you mean?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: Well, I thought we were gonna talk about this later in the interview but, OK, let\u2019s start with the big point. So, the big point I suppose is that at a time of existential crisis people have to and tend to make a decision about what\u2019s right and wrong. And they base their decision on that virtue, on the notion of virtues. They don\u2019t take utilitarian decisions, they don\u2019t go \u201cwhat will work, what won\u2019t work?\u201d And I think our culture\u2019s in the process of transitioning towards a realisation we don\u2019t have control. We have ontrol of our own lives, we don\u2019t have control over what\u2019s going to happen over the next thirty years. And so what\u2019s most important is that we live a good life, in an Aristelian [sic] sense, dare I say it. And that\u2019s where I\u2019m at and that\u2019s broadly what I promote to the people in terms of them making the decision to go into resistance.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: Do you mean that what I spend my day job doing \u2013 asking question of politicians about this or that policy initiative \u2013 in a sense misses the point, as far as you\u2019re concerned, when it comes to the threat tht we\u2019re now facing?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: Yeah, well, at the danger of disrupting you, ha ha, I\u2019m just gonna read you a quote, so hopefully your audience can understand a little more viscerally what we\u2019re actually talking about. So, you know, I get sent science articles three or four times a day. So, there\u2019s nothing particularly unique about this, but it came about a month ago from a peer reviewed paper, er, in a journal called Energies, and this is what it says: \u201cIf warming reaches or exceeds two degrees centigrade mainly richer humans will be responsible for killing roughly one billion mainly poorer humans.\u201d OK? So\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: And that\u2019s a result of climate change, which produces drought, produces famine and so on and so forth\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: No. What that quote is saying is climate change is not killing anyone. It\u2019s mainly richer human beings who are killing poorer human beings. And the tool of the death project is destruction of the climate\u2026.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: Tool is an interesting word, and I quoted you as saying the global one per cent are imposing<\/strong> mass death. You\u2019re arguing that this is a conscious<\/strong>, a deliberate<\/strong>, a calculated<\/strong> act by those people, are you, rather than the by-product of what they would no doubt justify as growth, expansion of wealth, and so on?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: It\u2019s an interesting intellectual digression\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: But you think it misses the point?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026to split hairs over what degree of murder it is.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: It was a genuine question, because it\u2019s your language\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: I\u2019m just choosing my words carefully. I think (pause) when your audience hears that, you\u2019ve got two options, and you\u2019ve<\/strong> got two options, which is to try and intellectualise around it and, you know, ask a reasonable intellectual question, which is \u201cto what degree is it murder, to what degree is it manslaughter?\u201d But that is a displacement activity. The main human response to that should be massively emotional. Emotional about what\u2019s going to happen to you<\/strong>, what\u2019s going to happen to your family, what\u2019s going to happen to the country, what\u2019s going to happen to the whole world. What\u2019s going to happen for the next hundred thousand years, because this is going to go on and on. And the biggest problem is journalists like yourself \u2013 with all due respect \u2013 and a lot of elite people are incapable of emotionally connecting. And what we know<\/strong> from, you know, ancient wisdom, but also from modern psychology, is that reason is a product of emotion. Unless you can actually feel<\/strong> the terror and horror of what I\u2019ve just said, you\u2019re not going to be able to act rationally and reasonably in response to that horror.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: One of the things I want to understand in this interview is how<\/strong> you think \u2013 and how<\/strong> you have very successfully persuaded other people to think \u2013 do you think that emotional reaction, the thing you say I\u2019m incapable of, but the interview\u2019s not about me, is what you did<\/strong> successfully produce a few years back in that very<\/strong> successful few days for you when Extinction Rebellion brought chaos to the streets of London \u2013 if you\u2019re a critic \u2013 or finally showed how many people were willing to stand up and be counted to fight for, er to fight against<\/strong> climate change.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: So, I disagree with what you just said. I think it is<\/strong> about you. And it\u2019s about the audience. So one of the things you learn about how to persuade people or how to create mobilisation is about centring things on the actual moment, this moment, right? We have a moment here. I am talking to you, you\u2019re talking to me, a whole number of people are listening to this. Let\u2019s focus on our responsibilities and our emotions, when we\u2019ve just heard that one thousand million people will \u2013 note the quote \u2013 will be killed by mainly rich people in the next two generations, right? If we are going to actually survive this beyond traumatic experience, which is effectively locked in, we have to learn to think about the immediacy of the moment rather than engage in what I would describe as the privilege of detachment. Right? You know, you\u2019re doing this interview, that\u2019s all well and good. If we were in 1995 I would be answering your questions and be very grateful, but we\u2019re not in 1995, we\u2019re in 2023.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: What I\u2019m interested in, let\u2019s say I reacted in the way that you \u2013 is want the right word? \u2013 you, you would want<\/strong> me to, and what you don\u2019t want me to do, and this isn\u2019t this interview, is to say well, some scientists don\u2019t agree with that, a number of them don\u2019t agree with this <\/strong>timescale, we\u2019re not having that debate today, that\u2019s for another time and another place, \u2018cos there are other views, as you know. What is it that you want the reaction to be, of me or anybody else, it\u2019s \u201cMy God, this should stop and it should stop now\u201d, is that the reaction you\u2019re expecting?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: The very question of how do you want me to react, for me shows that you simply haven\u2019t taken the information on. You know, if someone came through that door and said \u201cYour partner\u2019s in hospital\u201d you wouldn\u2019t be saying \u201cWell, what sort of reaction do you want me to have to that?\u201d You\u2019d be going \u201cI\u2019ve got to go, Roger. Bye.\u201d There\u2019s an emergency, you know, like, three years ago the British Parliament, as you know, four years ago I think it is now, made a decision, right, on behalf of this country that we are in an emergency.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: That was the wording that they used\u2026when Thereas May was Prime Minister soon after Extinction Rebellion took to the streets\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: No one in the political class \u2013 including yourself and your colleagues at the BBC \u2013 have even come close to understanding and acting upon what an emergency is. An emergency is when you clear the decks, right? What we should be talking about in this interview is not a nice gentlemanly discussion about my background and you know, what I think about the theory of social change. You can have me on for a whole bunch of series\u2019 and we can go into that. But I haven\u2019t been on the BBC for \u2013 what?- three years now. The last time I was on was Hard Talk and \u2013 what was it called? \u2013 More or Less said I was making it up when I said billions of people were going to die, right? I\u2019ve got half an hour on your show. There\u2019s an emergency. What I want to talk about is you<\/strong>. Cos you have been\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: Oh, this is interesting. You want to come onto an interview programme and interview me, rather than the other way around?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: yes, because that\u2019s how social change works. Social\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: Yeah, well I\u2019m going to ask you some questions, and<\/strong> you can ask me some questions, so why don\u2019t we do a deal half-way\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: Let me just finish. I\u2019m not going to go on for ages. Let me just finish<\/strong> and say, the process of social change, the process of, of gettings things done<\/strong> in an emergency is all about transgression. It\u2019s all about saying what you\u2019re saying is not important. This is what\u2019s important\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: Sure.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026because it\u2019s objectively<\/strong> important, because that\u2019s what an emergency is.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: I\u2019m teasing you gently, but you\u2019re suggesting that by hijacking this interview, in a sense, this is a form of civil resistance, like that that you have promoted\u2026.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: It\u2019s not a move, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: Well it is\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: No it\u2019s not, right? You could construct it as that, but it\u2019s not, like\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: Well what is it, then? If it\u2019s not a move.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: It\u2019s a visceral reaction to my total horror that the British establishment has completely<\/strong> failed to protect the people of this country.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: Well forgive me Roger, you went to university and you studied<\/strong> civil resistance for a long time, you came in to this interview with a lot of notes written down. You do<\/strong> make moves, you do<\/strong> make calculations. One of the reasons you\u2019re interesting to interview is because strategically<\/strong> you have turned out two of the most successful, influential protest movements this country has seen in recent times. So let\u2019s not pretend you don\u2019t work things out.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: No, obviously not. I\u2019m human, and I spend a lot of hours each day trying to work out what to do and what not to do. But the critical point here that I\u2019m trying to make, and to your audience, because it\u2019s your audience I\u2019ve come to speak to \u2013 no disrespect to you, right \u2013 is, is when something so awful as this is happening, you have to get your existential ducks in a row. You need to decide what sort of person you are and what sort of life you want to lead. And the fundamental question is how<\/strong> you\u2019re going to lead a good life, right. Most people don\u2019t think about this much because, you know, most of the time it\u2019s fairly obvious, you\u2019re looking after your family, you have a good job. But there\u2019s a massive missing element, which is to protect your country and to protect the human race.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: Perfectly fair point. Why don\u2019t we do a deal, which is I ask you some of the questions I want to ask you and you ask me some, and it\u2019s a podcast. We\u2019ve got, we\u2019ve got time to do both. What you\u2019ve just said, I think, raises quite a fundamental question, which is, is it fear, is it anger, is it what you called visceral emotion, that will drive change? Or is it hope? Now only in the last few days we\u2019ve seen the Prince of Wales talking about the importance of hope when it comes to climate change, and he would see himself \u2013 I think the King would see himself \u2013 as somebody who\u2019s argued passionately for change; and my guess is privately they\u2019d say \u201cCome on Roger, I mean if you scare the pants off people, that\u2019s not going to work at all\u201d. What do you say to people who say that?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: I say that you are not being true to yourself if you engage in utilitarian like distractions, at this stage.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: What, hope<\/strong> is a utilitarian distraction?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: What I\u2019m saying is \u2013 I know you don\u2019t believe me, but I\u2019m just going to assert it again \u2013 that I am not coming into this interview, like, with a whole bunch of moves. I\u2019m coming in to say something that\u2019s fundamentally truthful. When I helped to inititate Extinction Rebellion and Just Stop Oil, my fundamental rule is to say the truth and to act as if it\u2019s real. That was the foundation, and if you want my analysis on why Extinction Rebellion was so successful, it was because the founders were not interested in being successful. They were interested in telling the truth, that\u2019s a completely different logic.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: I understand that as a motive<\/strong>, but it is also<\/strong> the case that having studied successful civil resistance and protest movements, you came up with, I think \u2013 maybe it came from someone else \u2013 a theory of 3.5%, an idea of how many people needed to resist in society to make a difference. Just talk us through the mindest, if you would.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: If you, if you study the history of civil disobedience, as I have, the starting point, right, the starting point of the power<\/strong> of civil disobedience movements is the decision to act on the truth, like, not a post-modernist version of the truth, not like \u201cOh there\u2019s Roger\u2019s truth and someone else\u2019s truth\u201d right. We know ultimately you can\u2019t say what the truth is, but for practical circumstances, if someone murder\u2019s your offspring, and someone says \u201cOh well, it\u2019s just a matter of your opinion\u201d, you\u2019re not going to be very impressed. You know, you, your daughter or son is dead. It\u2019s dead. It\u2019s an objective reality. What we\u2019re dealing with here is the objective reality of physics. So if you put more carbon into the atmosphere, and we allow the elites to do that, then billions of people will die, you know. Maybe six billion, maybe three million, billion, but it\u2019s an obscene discussion, and I don\u2019t want to go there, right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: Yeah, and I don\u2019t want to have an argument about it. I\u2019m not a scientist, you\u2019re not a scientist, and we don\u2019t know, it\u2019s a forecast.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: What you need to understand is this is a unique moment in human history. We can look at, we can look at civil resistance like, you know, in various other contexts, but this is totally new.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: Sure. What I\u2019m<\/strong> interested in is what you<\/strong> are saying \u2013 and you are<\/strong> talking to people via this podcast and programme \u2013 is necessary to make that change. You\u2019re telling them that you want them to join in with civil resistance. You\u2019re saying \u2013 sometimes to people who\u2019ve never been on a protest in their life \u2013 I\u2019d like you to get arrested if you\u2019re willing to be arrested, I\u2019d like you to go to prison. What I\u2019m asking you is, how is that going to change the thing that you say is so frightening?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: Well, the first thing to say about disruption is, you know, I\u2019m interviewd a lot about this question, and as far as I\u2019m concerned it\u2019s a bad faith question, right, it\u2019s a cynical question, and the reason it\u2019s a cynical question \u201cWhy disrupt, Roger?\u201d is everyone disrupts.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: I\u2019m not asking you why you disrupt. I am asking you to explain to people who you want to disrupt, how it will work\u2026.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026This is why I say to people, you know\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026We will come to whether this is counter-productive, how will it work\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026This is what I say to people, people say \u201cOh, why should we engage in disruption, why should we engage in civil disobedience to the point of arrest?\u201d and what I say is you\u2019re being dishonest with yourself, right, the reason you\u2019re being dishonest with yourself is that if you have values, and those values are disrupted, everyone disrupts. Historically, right-wing people disrupt, left-wing people disrupt, the determining factor is are you utterly<\/strong> horrified by a social development such that you cannot live with yourself and not engage in disrupting your society? Ultimately disruption is war, right, you know, there\u2019s very few people that would argue that disrupting Hitler was a bad idea, otherwise known as World War Two, right, so you can work back from that, and what I\u2019m saying here is if you have someone come in to your interview and say a billion people are going to be killed, that\u2019s a no-brainer, right, that\u2019s twenty World War Twos.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: Ah, but I\u2019m interested, you said disruption is war, it\u2019s a war against who?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: It\u2019s a war against those people who are engaging in mass murder.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: Who are they?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: The global elites.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: But who are they? I mean, it\u2019s a phrase.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: Well, practically speaking , in this country it means the UK government and the forces behind the UK government. But the UK government has a constitutional responsibility as the people that control the British state\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026Now, after you and your supporters occupied the streets, particularly of London, in 2019, after what, a thousand-odd people got arrested, the UK government not only listened \u2013 er, they would no doubt deny there was a direct link to the declaration of a climate emergency \u2013 but they did<\/strong> declare a climate emergency in Parliament, also some of your representatives \u2013 not you \u2013 got to meet with Michael Gove, who was then the Environment Secretary, did it feel<\/strong> to you like a moment where Wow, these people are, they are<\/strong> actually listening?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: Well, this is a really mind-numbingly stupid question, right, OK, one billion people\u2026.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026We can swap if you like, you can do my job and I\u2019ll do yours\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026With all due respect, right\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026I love the addition of \u201cWith all due respect\u201d. That makes it feel a lot better\u2026.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026It\u2019s a mind-numbingly stupid question, is, is, and this comes back to emotional, like, connection, right, I mean I\u2019ve got no expectation of you motionally connecting, right, with what I\u2019ve just said, \u2018cos you\u2019re part of that system, that isn\u2019t able to connect. When I\u2019m, when I\u2019m coming on to this programme\u2026.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026I\u2019m paid not to take the side of people who are in front of me to be interviewed\u2026..<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026.Exactly, exactly, you\u2019re paid, but also it\u2019s part of the culture, the psycopathic culture of the British elite, is just not to connect with the emotional reality of what\u2019s going to be imposed on the British people\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026.But just get to why, why \u2013 I don\u2019t wish to invite you to endlessly repeat how stupid I am \u2013 but why is it not a sensible question to say did you feel then you were getting somewhere? And do you not feel now\u2026.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026What I\u2019m trying to say is the pretence<\/strong> that the British establishment is taking seriously its resonsibilities is self-evidently ridiculous, given the gravity of what we face\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026.But did it feel that way then<\/strong>, or was there a moment you thought \u2013 not for a second that you\u2019d won: of course not \u2013 but. We\u2019re shifting things. We\u2019re moving things, things are changing\u2026.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026Yes<\/strong>, there was a moment when the British establishment \u2013 the political class of this country \u2013 had the opportunity to fulfil it\u2019s most grave obligations towards the British nation, the British people, and it utterly failed.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: That was in 2019\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026That was in 2019, when there was [sic] ten thousand people on the streets of London, and it was an opportunity, right, that was a very graceful, very well-organised, very peaceful protest, as everyone knows. I spoke to the head police officer afterwards and he said he\u2019d never known such a big congregation of people doing civil disobedience that had ever led to no<\/strong> police officer having any injury at all.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: Well, I remember being on Waterloo Bridge as a reporter, and it was something like\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026So this was an opportunity, this was an opportunity\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026It wasn\u2019t much of a party if you really couldn\u2019t get across the bridge and had important jobs to do, of course, but it was a party for those who were on the bridge. It was an opportunity missed. That meant that you <\/strong>changed your approach. You adopted different tactics, tactics which led you to fall out even with your own daughter at one point.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: Yes. So, I think the next question you should be asking\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026Can I ask the quation I want to ask, then you can ask me the question that I\u2019m meant to ask, OK? You fell out with your daughter, she said, and indeed she threatened to walk out of Extinction Rebellion unless you left it\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026No\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026There\u2019s a documentary that shows that happening\u2026.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026I don\u2019t want to answer that question because I don\u2019t think it\u2019s that important, right, what the important question, I mean, you can ask me questions, and I can choose whether to answer them, right\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026No no, let me put it another way, and then you can tell me, er OK you don\u2019t want to talk about the personal<\/strong> thing, but there was<\/strong> an argument, wasn\u2019t there, about whether you could keep the party atmosphere of Extinction Rebellion going, if you like, or whether you actually had to harden up, which you wanted to do with causing disruption at Heathrow. And it led eventually yo Just Stop Oil.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: It did, but that\u2019s not what\u2019s important in a half hour interview. What\u2019s important in this half hour interview\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026I\u2019ll give you more time if you want\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026OK, what\u2019s important in this half hour interview is to focus on the patholgy of the British establishment in its treasonous inability to understand politically, emotionally, what is coming down the line, right. This is what\u2019s avoided over and over again by the media, right, it\u2019s this focus on the civil disobedience, to focus on this movement. This movement is not important. Civil disobedience is not important, right. What\u2019s important is for the audience to discuss and be aware of this utter<\/strong> betrayal of our fundamental rights. The most fundamental right in this country is the right to livelihood and a life. And what we have down here is overwhelming scientific evidence that the people of this country are going to be liable to starve to death in the next half century.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: Well, this is\u2026.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026That\u2019s a substantive probability\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026This is not just an argument about tactis, if you\u2019ll forgive me, which I know you think is trivial compared with the scale of what we face. It is<\/strong> an argument whether, if I give you the whole half hour to simply repeat how many people are going to die, and how awful it\u2019s going to be, in one pamphlet you wrote at one stage you talked about mass rape. Is that going to work? Because you\u2019re somebody who\u2019s interested in what ultimately will work, and there are plenty of people in the old Extinction Rebellion movement, outside<\/strong> the movement, going \u201cit doesn\u2019t<\/strong> work, it alienates people, it turns them off\u201d. People want hope.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: Well, as I expected, you haven\u2019t listened to me\u2026.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026I think I have, actually\u2026.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026.I have tried to make it clear several times that I am not primarily (pause) I am not primarily motivated by what works, right. What I\u2019m primarily motivated by is, in a fairly inadequate way, obviously, because I\u2019m human, is delivery of a good life, so that when I\u2019m on my death bed I feel like I had some integrity at a time when society was heading for the most catastrophic collapse in the human story\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: Forgive me, that sounds \u2013 which I\u2019m surprised by, genuinely \u2013 that sounds like you\u2019ve almost given up. It\u2019s \u201cHow do I live with myself before my maker?\u201d, and your mother was a Methodist preacher, and it\u2019s clear that religion played quite an important part in shaping the person that you are in your youth. It sounds as if you\u2019ve\u2026.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH; \u2026It doesn\u2019t mean\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026given up\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026It doesn\u2019t mean I\u2019ve given up, it doesn\u2019t mean I haven\u2019t given up, right, it\u2019s just not thinking that question\u2019s important\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026Yeah. Are<\/strong> you still motivated, I mean that\u2019s a deep question you\u2019ve asked about whether you can live with yourself and your sense of whether you\u2019ve lived a good life. Were you shaped, are you shaped a lot by the values and experiences that you had at home?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: I think what I\u2019m primarily shaped by is my understanding of what people do when they are presented with a catastrophic future, a catastophic present even. And what we know, and what we feel in our veins obviously when this happens to us, assuming we\u2019re open to it, is the questions of whether we\u2019re actually going to make it or not are not the most important questions. The questions that I hope many of your audience are asking is, I [garbled \u2013 have been?] presented with overwhelming evidence of a catastrophic future for my children. What\u2019s my responsibility to my children? It\u2019s not like what\u2019s my responsibilities to my children\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026Ok, what is that responsibility, no, no, understood, cos you\u2019ve said that. What is it you think is their responsibility because the danger with any discussion about politics is individuals think \u201cwell, there\u2019s a great limit to what I can do, what difference I make, it\u2019s not up to me. There are forces beyond my control.\u201d So if there\u2019s someone listening or watching now and says \u201cOk, I\u2019ve heard that. He\u2019s right\u201d. What is it they can do?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: Well, first of all this is not politics, right. This is one of the biggest problems with how we frame all of this. And one of the reasons why people are so confused. They think that climate change \u2013 you\u2019ll notice I haven\u2019t used those words, right \u2013 they think that climate change is as you said at the beginning, is n issue, it\u2019s a thing, it\u2019s on the agenda, there\u2019s [sic] policies. You know, it\u2019s got to be fitted in with our obsession for economic growth and all of the rest of it, right. That\u2019s not what\u2019s going on here, right. What\u2019s going on here is the imposition of evil into our lives. Evil is something beyond politics. What evil is is a scheme of creating mass death\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026Yeah, but you\u2019re still not answering the question, which is, the person who\u2019s listening, and has heard what you\u2019ve said, and has woken up emtionally in the way you think I have not, and they say \u201cI\u2019m going to do something. What does Roger Hallam want me to do?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: This is, this is, the framing of how I hope and wish that people listening to this will adopt, right, cos as soon as we feel like it\u2019s politics, then we go into this utilitarian \u201cdoes this work, what should I do, I\u2019ve got to go on holiday that month, you know, how can I negotiate all my other elements of my life\u201d, right\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026But the floor is yours. I\u2019ve just asked you, what do you want them to do?\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026I know, I\u2019m getting to it. I\u2019m saying on the basis of understanding what it actually is, right, that it is an evil situation, in total seriousness. I\u2019m not talking science fiction novels here, I\u2019m talking about Hitler, you know, the Holocaust, I\u2019m talking about Cambodia, I\u2019m talking about what happened in Congo, this is a beyond serious situation, right. If the AMOC, if the AMOC current, as you may know, right, collapses before 2050 \u2013 that\u2019s one headline in the newspapers \u2013 the British people will starve.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: Yeah. I\u2019ve very deliberately not had an argument with you about the science or the numbers, but I am<\/strong> going to say \u2013 because I think it\u2019s right to say \u2013 there areplenty of people who will say it\u2019s nothing like the Holocaust. The Holocaust was a deliberate industrial, industrialised destruction of a people, and climate change, you think, is the responsibility of an elite. You slightly dodged the question when I said \u201cWas it deliberate?\u201d \u2013 you sort of suggested it was a kind of verbal game \u2013 but it is not therefore the same as Pol Pot massacreing people for who they are.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: It\u2019s worse. And the reason it\u2019s worse is because of the scale, right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: Yeah, but motive matters when people are doing it\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026Motive matters, motive matters, absolutely. Don\u2019t get me wrong, right. What happened in the Holocaust was an obscenity beyond words because there was a direct motive to kill. But as you well know, right, and as any legal person would say is, there\u2019s [sic] two elements to a crime, right. There\u2019s the scale of the crime and there\u2019s the intentionality. And the intentionality is in the mid-ground as it were. It\u2019s not like they didn\u2019t know, they didn\u2019t have the information. They do<\/strong> know, and they do<\/strong> have the information, and they\u2019re prepared for people to die. But admittedly\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026Let\u2019s go back to what\u2026.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026Let\u2019s just deal with this issue, right. Admittedly noone\u2019s pretending the elites want to kill the poor of this world just because they\u2019re poor\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026OK\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026But. Let me just finish\u2026.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026All right\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026But, I\u2019ve just told you there\u2019s [sic] a billion people according to peer-reviewed papers \u2013 and I could come in with a whole bunch of other ones \u2013 and people on this programme\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026You\u2019ve shared quite a few different numbers in this interview, but anyway\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026Let\u2019s fo for one billion people, right. That\u2019s twenty times the number of people that were killed in World War Two. That\u2019s why it\u2019s worse\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026Forgive me. I know my audience reasonably well. I think they\u2019re at the \u2013 listening to this, watching \u2013 they\u2019re interested in what you\u2019re saying. They\u2019re saying \u201cWhat does Roger Hallam want me to do?\u201d and then what does the Government do \u2013 we\u2019ve still got to come on to that\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026OK, we\u2019re coming on to that. Yeah, yeah, yes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: So, what do people do, first of all? Now, do you want them \u2013 and do you think this would make the difference \u2013 to join the ranks of people, say in Just Stop Oil, for example, direct protests, whether it\u2019s kind of throwing things at paintings, whether it\u2019s lying down in the streets. Is that<\/strong> what\u2019s going to bring about the change?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: There\u2019s, there\u2019s a fundamental decision, and then there\u2019s a degree of practicality with any fundamental decision, right. In the real world there\u2019s a degree of practicality. The fundamental decision is to emotionally connect with the criminality of what is happening on the basis of what is said. Therefore you have no choice. You have no choice morally not to enter into resistance against the British Government at this time because of the intensity and extent of the horror that\u2019s coming down the line.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: To be clear what you mean by resistance. You\u2019ve basically talked about going to prison. If you\u2019re not in prison, you\u2019re not resisting, is what you said at one stage\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026Yes, well I\u2019m coming on to that. So, there\u2019s a practical, there\u2019s a practical side to that. There\u2019s a practical side to what resistance means, right. Resistance is a foreign notion to most people listening to this, no doubt. But it\u2019s not, like, impossible to get youur head round. People resist all the time on different levels, right. What we\u2019re practically talking about here is mass civil disobedience in the UK context. And as a pathway \u2013 which is Just Stop Oil, and dare I say it, people can go onto the website, it takes two minutes and you get into the system, and they will tell you what you can and can\u2019t do and all the rest of it, right. The fundamenatal point is, is that in order to create the change that we need in the time that we\u2019ve got, we have no choice other than to engage in mass civil disobedience.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: And you believe that will make a difference? How?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: It\u2019s not a matter of whether it makes a difference or not. Obviously, by definition civil disobedience makes a difference. The question is, is it at a scale<\/strong> which will tip a western democratic government into enacting climate policies in the first instance?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: But then there is<\/strong> a practical question, which I think it\u2019s entirely fair to ask you, which is, you got thousands onto the streets in 2019. Since then, we\u2019re taling of small-scale resistance, and unless you get many more than the ten thousand you had before, it\u2019s not going to happen, is it, what you want to happen? Governments are not going to quake. They are not going to dramatically change their policies. So, are you anywhere close to that?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: We may be, we may be not. And the reason I\u2019m saying that is not because I\u2019m trying to avoid your question, right? It\u2019s very difficult to predict, because\u2026.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026Did you know before 2019, in other words, was there a moment you thought \u201cMy God, this is going to happen. We are now not getting just a few hundred\u2026\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026Yeah, I said, I said to Extinction Rebellion, if tens of thousands of people go to London, there will be a result, right. That was my prediction on the basis of a study that I\u2019d had. But one of the things about being in this work, as it were, is, is that it\u2019s very difficult to predict whether those people tip over to saying \u201cI\u2019m going to have to act, because I cannot not act\u201d, right. And they may, and they may not. And if they do, then we\u2019ve got a chance of saving what\u2019s left to save. And if we don\u2019t, then we\u2019re heading into this mass starvation scenario\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026It often takes something very immediate, very personal to tip people into action. Now in your<\/strong> case it was as a farmer seeing what the climate was doing to your farm.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: I think actually it\u2019s not that much about what\u2019s actually happened to you, for most people. I think for most people, most people who enter this, this situation and say \u201cI cannot live without acting\u201d, it\u2019s due to an involuntary feeling of horror.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: Humour me by answering one question, just for the sheer hell of it, we could do that. Erm, your farm failed. And it as one<\/strong> of the things that made you think \u201cthere\u2019s something I now need to do something about\u201d.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: Yes. There\u2019s [sic] hundreds of millions of farmers [sic] around the world who\u2019ve had the same experience as me, which is the trauma \u2013 and it is<\/strong> a trauma \u2013 of finding out that the weather systems are not going to enable them to grow the crops they wanted to grow. Right. It\u2019s a financial disaster for them, but it\u2019s also an emotional disaster, cos they lose control of their lives. You know, you\u2019ve got a nice, calm sort of life, dare I say, you know, you don\u2019t have to worry this studio exists every time you go to work\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026No, that\u2019s true\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026If you\u2019re a farmer, you can be the best farmer in the world, but if it rains every day for seven weeks, a hundred per cent of your crops are going to die. You know, if it\u2019s minus 20 in the winter, you\u2019re going to lose all your winter crops. The fact that it\u2019s a one in a thousand year event is no solace to you. You\u2019re losing your livelihood.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: But did that feel to you, when that happened to you, like a moment?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: It was a moment of making real what is going to happen\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026So something you knew intellectually, but seeing\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026Exactly. This is the problem, right, and this is why civil resistance works, because we can have as nice a chat as we like, and, you know, I can do lots of interviews, nothing\u2019s going to change. What\u2019s going to change is the emotion of finding people getting dragged off the street, put into prison, on a mass scale. Students crying on motorways, right. This is how change works. It doesn\u2019t change, with all due respect, right, we\u2019ve got plenty of time, right, for an intellectual discussion, dare I say, you know I\u2019m not a researcher at King\u2019s College. But at this moment it\u2019s an obscenity to just come on a show and say well, let\u2019s, you know, let\u2019s discuss this as if it\u2019s over there. It\u2019s not. It\u2019s in, it\u2019s in your stomach, Nick, right\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026Yeah, and in your<\/strong> case it\u2019s in your stomach enough for you to go to prison, what twice, three times?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: People go, people go to prison all round the world through civil resistance. There\u2019s nothing particularly peculiar about that\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026Ah, no, but there may be people in jail unlike you<\/strong> who say \u201cFor me, that is a hell of a thing to risk doing\u201d, either because they\u2019re personally frightened of it, or they\u2019re worried what it\u2019ll mean for their family, or how they\u2019re seen in society, their job, their ability to earn a living, so it is a big<\/strong> thing\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026The big thing is what\u2019s going to happen to us. That\u2019s, that\u2019s\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026You\u2019ve no words of comfort for them on, don\u2019t worry about going to prison, it\u2019s just, this is\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026There\u2019s no\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026It\u2019s just, this is so important, you\u2019ve just got to do it\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026I have, I have no words of comfort, right. Let me say that again. I have no words of comfort for your audience. What I\u2019m saying to you and your audience is, get real. Right. This is not the time to look for comfort. It\u2019s the time to actually understand how totally terrible this situation is, and to act accordingly. That\u2019s your duty, right, as a parent, as a citizen, and as a human being.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: Some people will be inspired by what you say. Other people will be terrified, thinking \u201cIf he is so <\/strong>clear about this in his mind, he\u2019ll stop at nothing.\u201d It\u2019s not just inconvenience, it\u2019s not just civil disobedience, what would it be?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: What I\u2019m clear about is what\u2019s clear. OK? [Laughs.] Objectively clear, which is there\u2019s a thing out there called physics, right\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026Yeah, no but I\u2019m asking you whether there\u2019s any limits to this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: The limits to what you do<\/strong>?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: We have to engage in civil disobedience, civil resistance, to the point that we fundamentally change the regime, right \u2013 the regime of digging fossil fuels out of, out of the ground. I don\u2019t know quite what that looks like, and I don\u2019t need to, right. You don\u2019t need to have all<\/strong> the information to act. What you have to have is the visceral horror of what\u2019s happening. And what we need to do is in November, is go down to London and engage in civil disobedience, cos that\u2019s our best bet. No-one\u2019s pretending it\u2019s going to be successful. No-one\u2019s pretending that Just Stop Oil is necessarily the best thing ever, right. But that\u2019s what, that\u2019s the opportunity your viewers have. And it\u2019s the opportunity, dare I say it, for you<\/strong> and also all these people, right, OK?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: What, the ones behind the glass who are pressing the buttons and my producers\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026Yes, every, it\u2019s the opportunity. No, don\u2019t smile about this, it\u2019s very serious, right. This is the opportunity for you at the BBC to fulfil your duty to the British people, which is to say to the British government you will no longer co-operate with a genocidal regime.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: Yeah, no it\u2019s not the duty of the BBC to do any such thing\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026It is, it absolutely is\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026Well it might be in your mind\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026Because what we\u2019re talking about, what we\u2019re talking about\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026It\u2019s my duty\u2026tell us what\u2019s happening in November, cos we don\u2019t know what\u2019s happening in November\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026No, no, no, no, I\u2019m not letting you go on that. What we\u2019re talking about here is treason against the British people\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026You\u2019re applying for a job? Now, what is happening in November? You\u2019ve told people you want them to come to London in November, but I don\u2019t know, they don\u2019t know, what it is you\u2019re talking about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: What I want to say to your audience is, is, your reaction over the last two minutes is symptomatic of why they\u2019re being betrayed, right. Your belittling of your responsibility, and these people, to actually make a concrete step to save our country. And you will<\/strong> suffer the consequences of it in the next decade\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026I\u2019m suffering in this interview at the moment. Now what<\/strong> is happening in November that you think people should do?\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026No, what I want to say to your audience is, you will be taken, you will be taken to Court. You will be taken to Court\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026Who will be?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: You<\/strong> will be\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026Oh, me personally, right\u2026.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026as a member of the British establishment. You need to take this seriously.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: I\u2019m going to be taken to Court for what?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: You\u2019re, absolutely, you will be taken to Court\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026For what, for what?\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026as a member of the British establishment, for betraying the British people during the two thousand and twenties\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026But what will I be guilty of?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: You need to think about\u2026.You will be guilty of treason. This is a, a pregnant moment of potentiality, right, for people in the establishment to decide what they want to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: In the meantime, you invited people to go to London in November. Can you tell us more? What is it you\u2019re hoping will happen then?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: There\u2019s a website. Just Stop Oil. There\u2019s various other websites. It\u2019s easy. If you\u2019re in the audience you go on the website, you sign up, and a whole bunch of practical details, right\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026Yeah\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026The fundamental point is, is making that decision to enter into that process. You don\u2019t need to make that decision, ultimately, by getting involved in the process. The thousands and thousands of people in this country who\u2019ve engaged in civil disobedience, they enter the process with a lot of fear, trepidation, but they\u2019re driven to do it, and they go through a series of steps, right. And they\u2019re supported in those steps by other people that have had a similar experience of fear and trepidation\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026Understood\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026Right, that\u2019s<\/strong> the process.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: Now, over the course of this conversation, er, you\u2019ve told me how frightening it is, what\u2019s gonna happen. You\u2019ve accused me of not doing enough, of not being stirred emotionally to do enough about it. You\u2019ve got to address, I think, don\u2019t you, the people who just say \u201cI don\u2019t want to be hectored and harangued and terrified. I want to be persuaded by cogent arguments about what will change and how it will change and what will make a difference\u201d. To those who think that do you think they\u2019re just missing the point?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: Yes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: But they\u2019re your audience.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: No. The audience is the 1% of the population. Civil resistance and social change happens [sic] when 1% of the population decides that they have been morally violated to the point that they engage in resistance.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: Now we\u2019re getting to the point. So in a sense, all those people \u2013 and you know them well \u2013 who say \u201cWhy the hell\u2019s he disrupting our lives? Why are they<\/strong> disrupting our lives, by occupying a road, or why are they ruining some beautiful piece of art by throwing soup or dye at it?\u201d your point is it doesn\u2019t really matter what 999 people out of a thousand think\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026What matters\u2026.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026We need the one to come out and fight\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026No. No no no. No no no. What matters in this life is whether you vilate your core values, which are objective. It\u2019s whether you violate your children, you violate your community, and you violate your country. Those are like trans-cultural norms, right, going back ten thousand years. And what I\u2019m saying is, is when a culture, like the culture you\u2019re part of, right, violate those norms, it\u2019s not a matter of whether you like it, whether you want to be persuaded, right. That\u2019s like, it\u2019s a stupid, it\u2019s a stupid response because you have to grow up and realise sometimes in life you have to make an act. You have to make a decision, right. Just as when you decide to defend your children\u2019s lives or you defend your country. You don\u2019t sit there and analyse it, right. Obviously, obviously there\u2019s a place when you\u2019re engaged in that process of confrontation and resistance for looking at tactics and all the rest of it. But that\u2019s not, that\u2019s not what we need to discuss on this programme\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026Mm, but you do end up discussing it and it obviously matters whether it\u2019s working or not\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026What we need to discuss\u2026.sure, if you give me, if you give me ten programmes, I\u2019m more than happy to spend half an hour\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026Well you\u2019ve had quite a lot of time already. Does it matter, therefore, that six in ten, even of people who\u2019ve protested, said disruptive protesting hinders rather than helps the cause. Does that matter?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: No. No, for the reasons I\u2019ve just said.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: So, in a way \u201cto hell with them\u201d. As long as you\u2019ve stirred one person out of a hundred on this programme\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026No\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026you\u2019ve succeeded\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026No, you\u2019re totally misrepresenting what I\u2019m saying. It\u2019s not a strategy. It\u2019s not like, oh those people don\u2019t matter cos we\u2019re just going for those, that one per cent, right. We\u2019re not going for anything. We\u2019re making a statement<\/strong>, right. We\u2019re making a statement to eternity about the sort of people we are. That\u2019s a completely different universe, right, of mental activity. Do you understand what I\u2019m trying to say?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: I do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: I\u2019m trying to say there\u2019s something totally unacceptable about the situation we\u2019re in\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026No, I do understand it. I just want to end on this, if we may, cos I hear your \u2013 I think it\u2019s anger, isn\u2019t it? \u2013 is it fair to describe it as anger? It\u2019s not frustration\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026I am utterly<\/strong>, utterly infuriated\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026Yes. Look. And I\u2019m aware<\/strong> that occasionally \u2013 because we\u2019re having a civilised conversation \u2013 that I\u2019ve smiled and you\u2019ve found it annoying\u2026.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026Because, because. Of course I find you annoying. I find, I find everything<\/strong> about the British establishment disgusting<\/strong>\u2026.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026Yeah, OK, well we\u2019re clear about that\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026I\u2019m saying that, as a, as an ordinary\u2026.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026Understood\u2026.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026farmer in this country. I spent twenty years doing my part of the bargain, which is producing food, running a business, doing my bit\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026But I\u2019m entitled therefore, Roger, to go back to what I asked you before. You couldn\u2019t even persuade your own daughter of this. She thought you\u2019d got it wrong. She thought your tactics were counter-productive. She walked out of Extinction Rebellion. If you can\u2019t persuade her\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026That\u2019s a cheap shot, as you know\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026Why is it cheap?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: It\u2019s a hard talk point, right. As you said, you said to me, you weren\u2019t going to use that sort of routine on me, right\u2026.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026But hold on, you\u2019ve just accused me of being complicit with genocide\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026For the record, for the record, for the record, she\u2019s fully supportive, as it happens, right\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026Well, she wasn\u2019t\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026That\u2019s not, that\u2019s not the point, is it? The point is, Nick, is what are you going to do to have integrity in your life, right. What are these people going to do\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026I will reflect on how I have integrity in my life, if you\u2019ll forgive me, not with a complete stranger who I\u2019ve only just met. I\u2019m paid to ask you questions\u2026.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026You\u2019ve had, you\u2019ve had thirty years, right\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026Yeah\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026You and your generation have had thirty years to look at this information. And what you\u2019ve chosen to do is have a quiet life, right. And Hell\u2019s coming down the road because you didn\u2019t act in time, right. It\u2019s not my<\/strong> job as a farmer<\/strong> to do this, is the political establishment\u2019s job. You\u2019ve got lots of privilege. You earn lots of money. I don\u2019t have a problem with that, right. There\u2019s a nice guy in there. What are you all doing? What are you all doing?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: You\u2019re not merely a farmer, Roger Hallam, are you? You\u2019re a political organiser, you\u2019re a strategist\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026I explained<\/strong> that, because you didn\u2019t do youur job. I would love to be weeding carrots, right. The reason I\u2019m in this studio\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026I\u2019d love to be asking questions that get answered, but we don\u2019t always get to do what we want\u2026.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026No\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026And that\u2019s it\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026And that\u2019s the problem, isn\u2019t it? That\u2019s the problem.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: Are you a depressive? Isn\u2019t this the problem?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: [Laughs]<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: No?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026Let me finish on this, right\u2026.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026No, I mean, I don\u2019t mean, I\u2019m not intruding into your\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026No no no\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026personal life. What I mean is\u2026.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026Let me tell you what the other side of the world is \u2013 a world that you cannot see, right. Because that\u2019s one of the reasons you don\u2019t ant to go to the, this other world, right. There\u2019s another world out there, which is a world of acting on your fundamental beliefs. When you act on your fundamental beliefs you experience a certain ecstasy, right. There\u2019s a certain glory<\/strong> in it, right. Which is invisible<\/strong> to the political elite, because that\u2019s why you\u2019re so terrified. That\u2019s why, that\u2019s why you won\u2019t act, because you don\u2019t understand as I see it, that there\u2019s a different way to live one\u2019s life, right. And you project, you project\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026I\u2019m intrigued, that you experience\u2026no, let\u2019s not talk about me, we\u2019ve done enough of that\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026No no no\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026But do you<\/strong> feel\u2026Honestly. You\u2019ve had a lot of time to accuse me of all sorts of things. Are you saying that you \u2013 and you hope your supporters \u2013 feel a kind of ecstasy\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026There\u2019s not a matter, there\u2019s not a matter of, there\u2019s not a matter of, of, what I want them to do. I\u2019m. I\u2019m being straight with you, right\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: \u2026No. I\u2019m just asking you to describe\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: \u2026Yes. So let me say quite clearly, right. Many<\/strong> \u2013 and not all, not all, not all times \u2013 when people are put into a cell in a police station they have a sense of peace, a profound sense of peace. This is an involuntary experience, right. You know, because they\u2019re going into the, they\u2019re going into the police station terrified, right, if it\u2019s the first time. And then they\u2019re put in a cell. You\u2019d expect them to be terrified. And often they are. But, but, and, at the same time they have a sense of peace, right. This is a spiritual phenomenon, which is when people stand up against evil, there\u2019s a release. There\u2019s not a tension any more. There\u2019s not that, that violation of your core self. And when you go into resistance, you suddenly feel like you\u2019ve rediscovered your integrity. You\u2019ve rediscovered the essence of what, what you think you are. You return to yourself, right. This is a universal phenomenon when people stand against evil historically. And that\u2019s what I\u2019m saying to your audience is this is not like an accounting cost-benefit analysis, right. It\u2019s an invitation to be who you already are, right. It\u2019s a, it\u2019s an invitation to come back to what you already are, which is a fundamentally decent person.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: This is the Zen of protest? The Zen of standing up to what you insist is evil.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: It\u2019s, it\u2019s something that people experience. You can give it fancy religious words if you like. I don\u2019t mind, right, you know. Maybe it\u2019s Christian, maybe it\u2019s\u2026the fundamental<\/strong> point I\u2019m trying to say here, right, is that you can feel joy, you can feel wholeness, and you can feel connection when you enter into this resistance orientation. And it\u2019s not despite<\/strong> entering into it. It\u2019s because<\/strong> you do, because you return to some sense of wholeness.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: You, you talked about that belief \u2013 even hope, I think \u2013 that you had in 2019, that there was a moment of change that looked possible, briefly. A moment that was dashed, rejected in your view. Do you see another in your lifetime? Do you still have hope?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RH: I have twenty more years of my life, and each day I get up and I endeavour to be the good person that I want to be. And what that means in the present context is to be in civil resistance against the genocisal British government. That\u2019s it, right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: Roger Hallam, thank you for joining me on Political Thinking.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

NR: Well, that certainly challenged my politicial thinking. I wasn\u2019t sure whether he was interviewing me or I was interviewing him at times. I Usually approach these interviews with some sort of rough plan, some rough structure. I even try to help the guest by giving them a sense of what we will talk about, and what we won\u2019t, to try to relax them. I did that with Roger Hallam, and he threw that out of the window. And I threw my notes and my structure out of the window too. But I hope it was still a revealing conversation about what motivates him, and what he believes might work to bring about political change. He\u2019s not interested in coaxing, he\u2019s not interested in wooing, he\u2019s not interested in any of the conventional tactics of political discourse. He believes that shock and anger and emotion, and ultimately civil disobedience leading, yes, to a willingness to go to prison is all that will change what he refers to as the regime. And he doesn\u2019t just mean this or any other government. He means what he sees as the elite, are finally forced to change. And, yeah, I\u2019ve been told, apparently I\u2019m part of that elite, and I might go to Court for treason. Memorable interview, wasn\u2019t it?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

An extraordinary interview with Roger Hallam, the co-founder of Extinction Rebellion, and the mastermind of Just Stop Oil.\u00a0 From Climate Etc. BY\u00a0MARK HODGSON An extraordinary interview Whatever one thinks of Roger Hallam, I think it\u2019s fair to say that it\u2019s challenging to listen to him for very long. Or at least I find it so, […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":121246920,"featured_media":283790,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_coblocks_attr":"","_coblocks_dimensions":"","_coblocks_responsive_height":"","_coblocks_accordion_ie_support":"","_crdt_document":"","advanced_seo_description":"","jetpack_seo_html_title":"","jetpack_seo_noindex":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_access":"","_jetpack_dont_email_post_to_subs":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_tier_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paywalled_content":false,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":"","jetpack_publicize_message":"An extraordinary interview with Roger Hallam, the co-founder of Extinction Rebellion, and the mastermind of Just Stop Oil.\u00a0","jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":false,"jetpack_social_options":{"image_generator_settings":{"template":"highway","default_image_id":0,"font":"","enabled":false},"version":2},"jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false},"categories":[1],"tags":[],"class_list":{"0":"post-283787","1":"post","2":"type-post","3":"status-publish","4":"format-standard","5":"has-post-thumbnail","6":"hentry","7":"category-uncategorized","9":"fallback-thumbnail"},"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/10\/image-465.png?fit=1280%2C720&ssl=1","jetpack_likes_enabled":true,"jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"jetpack_shortlink":"https:\/\/wp.me\/paxLW1-1bPd","jetpack-related-posts":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/283787","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/121246920"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=283787"}],"version-history":[{"count":6,"href":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/283787\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":283796,"href":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/283787\/revisions\/283796"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/media\/283790"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=283787"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=283787"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=283787"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}