{"id":281701,"date":"2023-10-03T15:23:09","date_gmt":"2023-10-03T13:23:09","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/?p=281701"},"modified":"2023-10-03T15:23:12","modified_gmt":"2023-10-03T13:23:12","slug":"horwitz-vs-kiesling-on-climate-social-science-matters-too","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/?p=281701","title":{"rendered":"Horwitz vs. Kiesling on Climate (social science matters too)"},"content":{"rendered":"\n
\"\"
Psycho Wallpapers<\/a><\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n

<\/p>\n\n\n\n

From \u00a0Master Resource<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n

By Robert Bradley Jr<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

\n

\u201d \u2026 we have to acknowledge that property rights in climate *cannot* be defined fully and we thus have to find some shared institution for governing the climate commons and managing emissions.\u201d (Kiesling)<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\u201cOne can think humans are causing the planet to warm but logically and humanely conclude that we should do nothing about it.\u201d (Horwitz)<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n

Lynne Kiesling<\/a> is an electricity specialist who describes herself as working in the classical liberal tradition. Problem is, she refuses to define what classical liberalism or a free market is in regard to electricity. She instead endorses central government planning for the wholesale grid, among other Statist proposals. [1] <\/strong>In so doing, she ignores how the traditions she espouses argue against<\/em> her positions (Hayek on central planning, Coase on transaction costs, Public Choice on politicization, etc.).<\/p>\n\n\n\n

How can an alleged classical liberal believe there cannot be effective private property rights to the grid? [2]<\/strong> How does she square her views about \u201cmarket failure\u201d to her \u201csynthetic theory of regulation<\/a>\u201c? If only she could elaborate rather than obfuscate and then disengage\u2026.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Channeling Horwitz<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kiesling recently wrote<\/a> on Substack: \u201cTo set this stage I\u2019m channeling the wisdom and insight of my dear, departed friend and excellent economist Steve Horwitz. Steve\u2019s been gone for two years and I miss him every day.\u201d This is part of her charm offensive to the wider free market community. [3]<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

But does she take Horwitz to heart? Not when it comes to climate change and public policy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kiesling as Climate Activist<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

One problem with Kiesling as a \u201cclassical liberal\u201d is her uncritical acceptance of climate alarmism and lack of criticism toward government-forced energy transformation (\u201clow-carbon solutions,\u201d in her politically correct language). It undergirds her activism in electricity away from the reliables to the unreliables (the virtual power plant) where batteries and her \u201creal time pricing\u201d (read: governmental rationing) come in. She is a \u201cwoman of system<\/a>,\u201d a technocrat, when it comes to one of America\u2019s most essential industries.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

So what does she think of carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions? In hushed tones, she assumes<\/em> that CO2 is a pollutant, a negative externality, creating a global commons problem. Her views came out in response to a post by Tyler Cowen, Green energy vs. green jobs<\/a>, summarizing his Bloomberg column, We Need Green Energy. We Don\u2019t Need Green Jobs.<\/a> (April 14, 2021).<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Here is our exchange:<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kiesling<\/strong>: Tyler [Cowen] is right. The focus should be on innovation that makes green energy cheap. If green energy creates value, then the jobs will follow. But the value creation has to come first.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Bradley<\/strong> Energy density and intermittency pretty much doom so-called green energy. The world, for most of history, was 100% \u2018green\u2019 energy. Then came mineral energies and progress. https:\/\/www.aier.org\/article\/w-s-jevons-1865-on-the-limits-to-renewables\/<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kiesling:<\/strong> First, we have to acknowledge that property rights in climate *cannot* be defined fully and we thus have to find some shared institution for governing the climate commons and managing emissions (read Ostrom). All forms of internalizing that external cost will be imperfect and involve rent-seeking, so we have to be creative and design mechanisms that manage the physical, economic, & political tradeoffs. By failing to do so, we\u2019ve ended up with RPS & other policies that create even more deadweight loss than a simple emissions tax would.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Second, the production costs decline & increased energy efficiency for renewables in the past decade has been astounding, and that\u2019s what\u2019s driven investment. You should look at the LCOE analysis I shared with Anna below, and there\u2019s more recent research on wind: look at the experience curves they estimate. https:\/\/onlinelibrary.wiley.com\/doi\/10.1002\/wene.398<\/a> Your focus on the PTC can\u2019t explain that change; it\u2019s small and it started in 1992, so can\u2019t be causal for recent changes. RPS might play a role by increasing demand.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Like you, I\u2019m opposed to subsidies & command-&-control regulation; unlike you, I put weight on the value of the varied attributes of different energy resources.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Bradley: <\/strong>Thanks for this explanation. We disagree on many points here, beginning with the premise that CO2 is a clear pollutant necessitating global government mitigation. And perhaps ending with Public Choice on the futility of nearly 200 sovereign governments addressing the alleged problem. Market adaptation to weather\/climate change is the simple, best, and really only \u2018climate policy.\u2019 There is much more\u2013I will address it in a future post at MasterResource.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I see no avenue for classical liberals to take other than to challenge the forced transformation from dense, reliable mineral energies to economically inferior\/eco-negative dilute, intermittent resources. Classical liberals should also challenge climate doom\/exaggeration that totally rejects the global lukewarming, truth-is-in-the-middle view.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

She did not respond further (her typical style\u2013assert vaguely and disengage).<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Any classical liberal or intellectually inclined person should not assume<\/em> the climate emergency but debate<\/em> it. Judith Curry<\/a>, not only Elinor Ostrom, should be Lynne\u2019s role model and mentor in this area. [4]<\/strong> This debate should not be ducked to be politically correct or relevant. Check the statistics about extreme events provided by Lomborg, Pielke Jr., and others. Do consider the benefits of carbon dioxide emissions and increasing atmospheric concentrations.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

So why is global climate a \u201ccommons problem\u201d? And how in the world can nearly 200 sovereign governments be expected to approach anything like the examples of an Ostrom \u201ccommons problem.\u201d [4]<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Steve Horwitz to the Rescue<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

If Lynne Kiesling is serious about the economics and politics of climate change, she should directly confront the check list<\/a> of the late \u201cexcellent economist\u201d (her words), Steve Horwitz. Starting with Point 4 on his list:<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\n

4. What are the costs of global warming?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

5. What are the benefits of global warming?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

6. Do the benefits outweigh the costs or do the costs outweigh the benefits?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

7. If the costs outweigh the benefits, what sorts of policies are appropriate?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

8. What are the costs of the policies designed to reduce the costs of global warming?<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n

He warned about climate policy:<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\n

So if in our attempt to reduce the effects of global warming we slow economic growth so far as to impoverish more people, or we give powers to governments that are likely to be used in ways having little to do with global warming, we have to consider those results in the total costs and benefits of using policy to combat global warming. This is a question of social<\/em> science that is no less important than the scientific questions I began with.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n

to conclude:<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\n

\u201c[I]t is perfectly possible to accept the science of global warming but reject the policies most often put forward to combat it,\u201d Horwitz concluded. \u201cOne can think humans are causing the planet to warm but logically and humanely conclude that we should do nothing about it.\u201d<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n

Lynne has bragged about her \u201csynthetic theory\u201d of electricity regulation. If she has put serious thought into a \u201csynthetic\u201d view of global government and CO2 emissions, she should tell us all about it. And not walk back to the dugout at two strikes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\u2014\u2014\u2014\u2014\u2014\u2014\u2014\u2014\u2014-<\/p>\n\n\n\n

[1]<\/strong> Kiesling\u2019s implicit endorsement of the wind\/solar takeover of the grid has led to the problems that she now wishes to cure with the \u201cvirtual power plant:\u201d open-ended wind, solar, and batteries on the supply side are complemented by smart meters in the home to ration demand via price or another metric. Obviously, a free market would bypass such statism-on-stilts with, most likely, two-part pricing to handle \u2018peakiness\u2019 in an obligation-to-serve capacity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

[2]<\/strong> Kiesling argues<\/a> rather astoundingly: \u201c\u2026 the grid is a common pool resource in which it is literally\u2014literally\u2014impossible to define and enforce property rights.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n

[3]<\/strong> Lynne has complained<\/a> that my criticisms<\/a> of her policy positions and evasion<\/em> is \u201cgrotesque\u201d and \u201chas lurched from your more typical passive aggressiveness to outright aggressiveness.\u201d Such psycho-analytics is ad hominem to a greater degree than my criticisms. So I go on the record by noting that her \u201ccharm offensive\u201d has camouflaged her Statism from a lot of classical liberals who would otherwise know better or ask her serious questions. I will leave the psycho-analysis of her in this regard to others.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

[4]<\/strong> A future post will contrast Ostrom\u2019s criteria for a \u201ccommons problem\u201d with anthropogenic climate change.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\"\"<\/figure>\n\n\n\n

<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

From \u00a0Master Resource By Robert Bradley Jr \u201d \u2026 we have to acknowledge that property rights in climate *cannot* be defined fully and we thus have to find some shared institution for governing the climate commons and managing emissions.\u201d (Kiesling) \u201cOne can think humans are causing the planet to warm but logically and humanely conclude […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":121246920,"featured_media":281705,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_coblocks_attr":"","_coblocks_dimensions":"","_coblocks_responsive_height":"","_coblocks_accordion_ie_support":"","_crdt_document":"","advanced_seo_description":"","jetpack_seo_html_title":"","jetpack_seo_noindex":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_access":"","_jetpack_dont_email_post_to_subs":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_tier_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paywalled_content":false,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":"","jetpack_publicize_message":"So why is global climate a \u201ccommons problem\u201d? And how in the world can nearly 200 sovereign governments be expected to approach anything like the examples of an Ostrom \u201ccommons problem.","jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":false,"jetpack_social_options":{"image_generator_settings":{"template":"highway","default_image_id":0,"font":"","enabled":false},"version":2},"jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false},"categories":[1],"tags":[691819134,691818056,691818076,691818154,691823251,691823253,691823252],"class_list":{"0":"post-281701","1":"post","2":"type-post","3":"status-publish","4":"format-standard","5":"has-post-thumbnail","6":"hentry","7":"category-uncategorized","8":"tag-climate-alarmism","9":"tag-climate-change","10":"tag-co2","11":"tag-net-zero","12":"tag-private-property-rights","13":"tag-psycho-analytics","14":"tag-steve-horwitz","16":"fallback-thumbnail"},"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/10\/03403621.jpg?fit=2098%2C1311&ssl=1","jetpack_likes_enabled":true,"jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"jetpack_shortlink":"https:\/\/wp.me\/paxLW1-1bhz","jetpack-related-posts":[{"id":375496,"url":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/?p=375496","url_meta":{"origin":281701,"position":0},"title":"Kiesling Likes Government Electricity Planning","author":"uwe.roland.gross","date":"17\/04\/2025","format":false,"excerpt":"\u201cKiesling intellectually resides in the government sandbox, where dilute, intermittent, fragile, government-dependent wind and solar is coordinated by ISO\/RTO planners. Add (subsidized) storage, then whatever is left on the supply side can be equilibrated on the demand side with \u2018smart meters\u2019 (another government play) in your home or business.\u201d","rel":"","context":"In \"climate-alarmist\"","block_context":{"text":"climate-alarmist","link":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/?tag=climate-alarmist-2"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/04\/0Green-Energy-Hydrogen-Production-Concept.jpg?fit=1200%2C686&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200,"srcset":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/04\/0Green-Energy-Hydrogen-Production-Concept.jpg?fit=1200%2C686&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200 1x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/04\/0Green-Energy-Hydrogen-Production-Concept.jpg?fit=1200%2C686&ssl=1&resize=525%2C300 1.5x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/04\/0Green-Energy-Hydrogen-Production-Concept.jpg?fit=1200%2C686&ssl=1&resize=700%2C400 2x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/04\/0Green-Energy-Hydrogen-Production-Concept.jpg?fit=1200%2C686&ssl=1&resize=1050%2C600 3x"},"classes":[]},{"id":334676,"url":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/?p=334676","url_meta":{"origin":281701,"position":1},"title":"Electricity Statism Conference: Kiesling Rides High","author":"uwe.roland.gross","date":"26\/06\/2024","format":false,"excerpt":"\u201cThis conference is not about free market reform; it is about centrally planned wholesale markets for electricity, as well as open-ended subsidies for wind, solar, and batteries, all at the expense of thermal generation and free-market order.\u201d","rel":"","context":"In \"carbon dioxide (CO2)\"","block_context":{"text":"carbon dioxide (CO2)","link":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/?tag=carbon-dioxide-co2"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/06\/0decarbonizing-grid_1536x768.jpg?fit=1200%2C600&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200,"srcset":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/06\/0decarbonizing-grid_1536x768.jpg?fit=1200%2C600&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200 1x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/06\/0decarbonizing-grid_1536x768.jpg?fit=1200%2C600&ssl=1&resize=525%2C300 1.5x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/06\/0decarbonizing-grid_1536x768.jpg?fit=1200%2C600&ssl=1&resize=700%2C400 2x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/06\/0decarbonizing-grid_1536x768.jpg?fit=1200%2C600&ssl=1&resize=1050%2C600 3x"},"classes":[]},{"id":356180,"url":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/?p=356180","url_meta":{"origin":281701,"position":2},"title":"Electricity Statism or Free Markets? 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The exchanges began a\u2026","rel":"","context":"In \"Battery storage technologies\"","block_context":{"text":"Battery storage technologies","link":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/?tag=battery-storage-technologies"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/02\/0a2bfcebe-0b09-4388-9f8c-6c36d59d3999-texas_topper.webp?fit=1200%2C675&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200,"srcset":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/02\/0a2bfcebe-0b09-4388-9f8c-6c36d59d3999-texas_topper.webp?fit=1200%2C675&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200 1x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/02\/0a2bfcebe-0b09-4388-9f8c-6c36d59d3999-texas_topper.webp?fit=1200%2C675&ssl=1&resize=525%2C300 1.5x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/02\/0a2bfcebe-0b09-4388-9f8c-6c36d59d3999-texas_topper.webp?fit=1200%2C675&ssl=1&resize=700%2C400 2x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/02\/0a2bfcebe-0b09-4388-9f8c-6c36d59d3999-texas_topper.webp?fit=1200%2C675&ssl=1&resize=1050%2C600 3x"},"classes":[]},{"id":303627,"url":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/?p=303627","url_meta":{"origin":281701,"position":4},"title":"The Great Texas Blackout of 2021: Triumph of the Unreliables","author":"uwe.roland.gross","date":"20\/02\/2024","format":false,"excerpt":"Three years ago this month, a prolonged, extensive cold snap did the unthinkable to Texas\u2019s huge electricity grid. 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