{"id":271579,"date":"2023-08-05T13:55:15","date_gmt":"2023-08-05T11:55:15","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/?p=271579"},"modified":"2023-08-05T13:55:32","modified_gmt":"2023-08-05T11:55:32","slug":"reality-kicks-in","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/?p=271579","title":{"rendered":"Reality Kicks In"},"content":{"rendered":"\n
\"\"<\/figure>\n\n\n\n

<\/p>\n\n\n\n

From Climate Scepticism<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n

By\u00a0MARK HODGSON<\/a><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

\"\"<\/figure>\n\n\n\n

The truth will out<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Today on BBC Radio 4\u2019s World at One programme, a remarkable interview took place between the presenter, Simon Jack (\u201cSJ\u201d), and Sir Dieter Helm (\u201cDH\u201d). During the interview Sir Dieter said many of the things that have been said repeatedly by climate sceptics. One can only assume that he \u2013 unlike most, if not all, sceptics \u2013 was allowed on to say what he did, because he says we (by which he means society globally \u2013 more on that below) need to \u201cdecarbonise\u201d in order to \u201cdeal with\u201d climate change.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

The interview followed an extensive section commencing with a clip of then Prime Minister, Boris Johnson, announcing his government\u2019s plans to decarbonise electricity generation by 2035, followed by the good news that offshore wind has (according to the BBC) been \u201ca staggering success story\u201d and that \u201cprices have fallen by 75% in the last decade.\u201d \u201cIt\u2019s cheap and it\u2019s clean\u201d, we were told (where are the BBC Verify Team and the climate misinformation specialists when you need them?).<\/p>\n\n\n\n

There followed an interview with Conservative MP Sir Bernard Jenkin, apparently a believer in net zero, but not a supporter of putting the pylons to take the power from offshore wind farms to where it is needed, via his constituency. That was followed by an interview with EDF\u2019s Director of Offshore & Ireland, Ryanne Burges, in which she claimed that offshore wind is competitive and that \u201crenewables is [sic] the cheapest form of energy that we have at this point in time.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Simon Jack proceeded from that interview to the next by asking \u201cSo are we at an impasse now between what\u2019s possible, what\u2019s affordable and what\u2019s\u00a0acceptable<\/strong>\u00a0to the people? That\u2019s the question I put to Sir Dieter Helm, Professor of Economic Policy at the University of Oxford, and I said to him [sic] whether we\u2019re having an honest debate, as I put to Ryanne there, about the costs and trade-offs required to get to net zero.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

DH: No, I think the debate is, er, has been to date pretty dishonest. I mean, you know, the idea that well it\u2019s, you know, all going to be cheap, er, there are going to be no costs and all benefits, you know, it\u2019s all, er, up-side is a delusion, you know, we are er nearly 80% fossil fuel-based in this country and if people genuinely want to decarbonise the whole system, er in 25 or 28 years, and decarbonise the entirety of the electricity system in, what, 12 years, or in Labour\u2019s case, about 6 or 7, then it, we should have a debate about what that involves, how that will actually change our landscape, er what the costs will be, and what implications follow for the intermittency and for the networks, etc., and whose going to pay those bills. And what happens is you run down a route encouraged by lots of lobbyists and others, er, for er very reasonable reasons, you run down a route without thinking through the consequences and what\u2019s required \u2013 and Nick Winser\u2019s report is very good on this \u2013 is a proper spatial plan. We have to know how it all fits together, what in totality is required, and how that\u2019s co-ordinated. Otherwise you end up with people being told it\u2019s not going to cost them anything and then discovering that switching from a higly carbonised economy overwhelmingly dependent on fossil fuels, on a fast track to one that isn\u2019t, is actually going to be costly. And at the first whiff of cost, like the first whiff of gunpowder at a battle, er the edifice starts to crumble, or at least starts to be politically questioned, and that\u2019s exactly what\u2019s going on now. And it was all very predictable, and the spatial planning, the summation of what\u2019s required, a proper plan to get from here to there, and honesty about the cost, would do a lot to help us address climate change, er as opposed to getting just de-railed, which is what the risk now is.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

SJ: And just a final thought, on our sort of trajectory towards net zero, the Government is very keen to stress that we\u2019ve cut emissions by forty-something per cent, and at the same time our economy has doubled in size, it shows that those two things are compatible. What do you make of progress to date? And obviously the UK has been lauded as a leader in offshore wind, and sort of getting emissions down most of any G7 country, are we at some kind of inflexion point about, in our progress towards that, is our progress going to be linear from here?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

DH: Well, the important thing to always bear in mind is the word\u00a0global\u00a0<\/strong>in the words \u201cglobal warming\u201d. It doesn\u2019t matter where the emissions are cut, and it doesn\u2019t matter where the emissions are caused, we have to get er these emissions down. And, you know, the UK has two great things to contribute to the globe on climate change. Offshore wind \u2013 because we\u2019ve got one of the best locations in the world for it \u2013 and, er, carbon capture and storage because we\u2019ve got a network of depleted wells offshore in the North Sea. What we\u2019ve\u00a0actually<\/strong>\u00a0done is fast-tracked, er, the reduction of emissions, which is not surprising for an economy which has also for the last twenty, thirty, forty years been fast-tracking the closure of its manufacturing industry. You know, we are 80% services. If emissions can\u2019t be got down in a service economy like ours it will be extraordinarily difficult anywhere else in the world. But simply importing all that stuff, rather than producing it at home, doesn\u2019t do much for climate change. And the question is one which I think isn\u2019t understood in the UK, er an politicians mislead us. You know, it\u2019s\u00a0not<\/strong>\u00a0the case that if we get to net zero in the UK we\u2019ll stop causing climate change. You have to stop all those imports and think about all those foreign holidays, etc. Erm, you know, what we have to do is address\u00a0global<\/strong>\u00a0warming and that means that we have to think how is the best, what\u2019s the best thing we can do with the money we\u2019re gonna have to spend to get down\u00a0global<\/strong>\u00a0emissions of er carbon, and the sad fact is, er, for those who believe, you know, we can unilaterally do this, is that er, you know, elsewhere offers lots of opportunities as well. And we should always measure our carbon consumption, stop kidding ourselves that if we import something instead of producing it at home, somehow that makes us virtuous. Well, it doesn\u2019t, and again what one requires is realism to get on the serious path to\u00a0global<\/strong>\u00a0decarbonisation.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Summary<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Sir Dieter\u2019s words speak for themselves, but I hope I fairly paraphrase his message as follows:<\/p>\n\n\n\n

1. We\u2019ve had a pretty dishonest debate to date. It\u2019s not all upside. There are real costs, in terms of damaging the countryside, problems with intermittency of supply, and serious financial implications \u2013 who is going to pay for it?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

2. We have lacked a proper plan. Now that the detail is having to be worked out, and the costs (financial and otherwise) are becoming apparent, the edifice is beginning to crumble.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

3. Destroying our manufacturing base and exporting our emissions, by having our products made elsewhere, isn\u2019t virtuous at all, it\u2019s self-deceiving. This is about\u00a0global<\/strong>\u00a0emissions, and exporting emissions isn\u2019t the same as reducing them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

4. We\u2019re now effectively a service economy. Cutting emissions here is easier than in a manufacturing economy. It\u2019s going to be very difficult to achieve elsewhere.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

5. We can\u2019t deal with climate change unilaterally. Others have to cut their emissions. The politicians have misled us.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

6. If we\u2019re serious about this, then you can forget your foreign holidays and your imported products.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Let\u2019s hope at least some well-placed politicians were listening.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Today on BBC Radio 4\u2019s World at One programme, a remarkable interview took place between the presenter, Simon Jack (\u201cSJ\u201d), and Sir Dieter Helm (\u201cDH\u201d). During the interview Sir Dieter said many of the things that have been said repeatedly by climate sceptics. <\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":121246920,"featured_media":271584,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_coblocks_attr":"","_coblocks_dimensions":"","_coblocks_responsive_height":"","_coblocks_accordion_ie_support":"","advanced_seo_description":"","jetpack_seo_html_title":"","jetpack_seo_noindex":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_access":"","_jetpack_dont_email_post_to_subs":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_tier_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paywalled_content":false,"_jetpack_feature_clip_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":"","jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":true,"jetpack_social_options":{"image_generator_settings":{"template":"highway","default_image_id":0,"font":"","enabled":false},"version":2},"jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false},"categories":[1],"tags":[691821603,691820689,691821606,691821605,691821604,691818154,691818130],"class_list":["post-271579","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-uncategorized","tag-bbc-verify-team","tag-boris-johnson","tag-g7-country","tag-global-warming-2","tag-higly-carbonised","tag-net-zero","tag-renewables","fallback-thumbnail"],"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/08\/0Banking-Apocalypse-Pixabay.jpg?fit=1280%2C720&ssl=1","jetpack_likes_enabled":true,"jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"jetpack_shortlink":"https:\/\/wp.me\/paxLW1-18Ej","jetpack-related-posts":[{"id":446284,"url":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/?p=446284","url_meta":{"origin":271579,"position":0},"title":"OFCOM\u2019s Clampdown on Free\u00a0Speech","author":"uwe.roland.gross","date":"05\/24\/2026","format":false,"excerpt":"The Government\u2019s state censor, OFCOM, is now actively attempting to clamp down on any debate about climate change that challenges establishment orthodoxy.","rel":"","context":"In \"BBC Radio 4\u2019s Today\"","block_context":{"text":"BBC Radio 4\u2019s Today","link":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/?tag=bbc-radio-4s-today"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/05\/0-ChatGPT-OFCOMs-Clampdown-on-Free-Speech.png?fit=1200%2C800&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200,"srcset":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/05\/0-ChatGPT-OFCOMs-Clampdown-on-Free-Speech.png?fit=1200%2C800&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200 1x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/05\/0-ChatGPT-OFCOMs-Clampdown-on-Free-Speech.png?fit=1200%2C800&ssl=1&resize=525%2C300 1.5x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/05\/0-ChatGPT-OFCOMs-Clampdown-on-Free-Speech.png?fit=1200%2C800&ssl=1&resize=700%2C400 2x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/05\/0-ChatGPT-OFCOMs-Clampdown-on-Free-Speech.png?fit=1200%2C800&ssl=1&resize=1050%2C600 3x"},"classes":[]},{"id":238175,"url":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/?p=238175","url_meta":{"origin":271579,"position":1},"title":"Lord Deben Repeats Pakistan Floods Lie\u2013BBC Fail To Challenge","author":"uwe.roland.gross","date":"01\/06\/2023","format":false,"excerpt":"This is not the first time that Deben has been allowed to get away with outright falsehoods on a BBC programme.","rel":"","context":"Similar post","block_context":{"text":"Similar post","link":""},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/01\/image-227.png?fit=1200%2C800&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200,"srcset":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/01\/image-227.png?fit=1200%2C800&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200 1x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/01\/image-227.png?fit=1200%2C800&ssl=1&resize=525%2C300 1.5x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/01\/image-227.png?fit=1200%2C800&ssl=1&resize=700%2C400 2x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/01\/image-227.png?fit=1200%2C800&ssl=1&resize=1050%2C600 3x"},"classes":[]},{"id":421546,"url":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/?p=421546","url_meta":{"origin":271579,"position":2},"title":"BBC Fact-Checking Show More or Less Gets its Climate Facts Wrong Again","author":"uwe.roland.gross","date":"01\/16\/2026","format":false,"excerpt":"The BBC\u00a0More or Less\u00a0statistics programme is one of the last remaining Radio 4 programmes worth a listen. It tries to dispassionately analyse the data behind often narrative-driven and politicised claims. Except when it comes to climate change and Net Zero of course. 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Richard Knight noted an extremist claim that up to 150 mostly animal species are lost every day, but then went\u2026","rel":"","context":"In \"Attribution studies\"","block_context":{"text":"Attribution studies","link":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/?tag=attribution-studies"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/11\/AQMn853GbdjAJDnwtuuoEcAFo9mHR8OIMBesMxDVGe0MTcoY1uwfNItC3tsY_IOE6cqqEavwKYokwJPq0B4MnV7QcFolJDpFOqg0modj0jXX6cvRYjluRf6zxkH4B1t61xfaWpdeay9l1MirldCBio9dyUx_vg.jpeg?fit=1200%2C1200&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200,"srcset":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/11\/AQMn853GbdjAJDnwtuuoEcAFo9mHR8OIMBesMxDVGe0MTcoY1uwfNItC3tsY_IOE6cqqEavwKYokwJPq0B4MnV7QcFolJDpFOqg0modj0jXX6cvRYjluRf6zxkH4B1t61xfaWpdeay9l1MirldCBio9dyUx_vg.jpeg?fit=1200%2C1200&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200 1x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/11\/AQMn853GbdjAJDnwtuuoEcAFo9mHR8OIMBesMxDVGe0MTcoY1uwfNItC3tsY_IOE6cqqEavwKYokwJPq0B4MnV7QcFolJDpFOqg0modj0jXX6cvRYjluRf6zxkH4B1t61xfaWpdeay9l1MirldCBio9dyUx_vg.jpeg?fit=1200%2C1200&ssl=1&resize=525%2C300 1.5x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/11\/AQMn853GbdjAJDnwtuuoEcAFo9mHR8OIMBesMxDVGe0MTcoY1uwfNItC3tsY_IOE6cqqEavwKYokwJPq0B4MnV7QcFolJDpFOqg0modj0jXX6cvRYjluRf6zxkH4B1t61xfaWpdeay9l1MirldCBio9dyUx_vg.jpeg?fit=1200%2C1200&ssl=1&resize=700%2C400 2x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/11\/AQMn853GbdjAJDnwtuuoEcAFo9mHR8OIMBesMxDVGe0MTcoY1uwfNItC3tsY_IOE6cqqEavwKYokwJPq0B4MnV7QcFolJDpFOqg0modj0jXX6cvRYjluRf6zxkH4B1t61xfaWpdeay9l1MirldCBio9dyUx_vg.jpeg?fit=1200%2C1200&ssl=1&resize=1050%2C600 3x"},"classes":[]},{"id":292902,"url":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/?p=292902","url_meta":{"origin":271579,"position":4},"title":"BBC \u2018Disinformation\u2019 Reporter Plans Six-Month Sabbatical to go on Climate Course Funded by Green Billionaires","author":"uwe.roland.gross","date":"12\/29\/2023","format":false,"excerpt":"Marco Silva is taking time out from his role as a senior reporter for BBC Verify specialising in \u2018climate disinformation\u2019 to enrol on a six-month course at the\u00a0Oxford Climate Journalism Network\u00a0(OCJN), a green activist operation funded by billionaire foundations promoting the collectivist Net Zero project.","rel":"","context":"In \"BBC Verify\"","block_context":{"text":"BBC Verify","link":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/?tag=bbc-verify"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/12\/0Screenshot-2023-12-28-at-00.47.15.png?fit=1200%2C670&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200,"srcset":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/12\/0Screenshot-2023-12-28-at-00.47.15.png?fit=1200%2C670&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200 1x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/12\/0Screenshot-2023-12-28-at-00.47.15.png?fit=1200%2C670&ssl=1&resize=525%2C300 1.5x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/12\/0Screenshot-2023-12-28-at-00.47.15.png?fit=1200%2C670&ssl=1&resize=700%2C400 2x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/12\/0Screenshot-2023-12-28-at-00.47.15.png?fit=1200%2C670&ssl=1&resize=1050%2C600 3x"},"classes":[]},{"id":283459,"url":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/?p=283459","url_meta":{"origin":271579,"position":5},"title":"The BBC\u2019s \u201cdue impartiality\u201d hypocrisy","author":"uwe.roland.gross","date":"10\/15\/2023","format":false,"excerpt":"The BBC seems to live in a parallel universe. 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The BBC is currently taking a lot of flak for its refusal to refer to Hamas as \u201cterrorists\u201d.\u2026","rel":"","context":"In \"BBC propaganda\"","block_context":{"text":"BBC propaganda","link":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/?tag=bbc-propaganda"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/10\/1_112080366_p08c03dy.jpg?fit=1024%2C576&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200,"srcset":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/10\/1_112080366_p08c03dy.jpg?fit=1024%2C576&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200 1x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/10\/1_112080366_p08c03dy.jpg?fit=1024%2C576&ssl=1&resize=525%2C300 1.5x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/climatescience.press\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/10\/1_112080366_p08c03dy.jpg?fit=1024%2C576&ssl=1&resize=700%2C400 2x"},"classes":[]}],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/271579","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/121246920"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=271579"}],"version-history":[{"count":5,"href":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/271579\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":271587,"href":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/271579\/revisions\/271587"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/media\/271584"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=271579"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=271579"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/climatescience.press\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=271579"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}